 General Discussion -  Original Sin & Judaism (47 views) Subscribe   
  From:  robocoastie    Mar-28 1:04 am  
To:  ALL   (1 of 9)  
 
  846.1  
 
**copied from the Passion movie thread because we've gone beyond its relevance to that thread** Please note I concur with people on the symbolism in that movie, the problem I was pointing out is the fact that the whole of christianity rests on the teaching that Jesus came to take care of the problem of original sin which just happens to be a first through 3rd century gentile myth and not only has nothing to do with Judaism but Jewish doctrine does not teach "original sin" in the first place! This obviously throws a monkey wrench in the gears to say the least! On top of that the idea that the whole need for a devil in the movie is ridiculous as well because the christian version of the devil also has zero relevance in Judaism. Rather to the Jews he is merely another angel, that does G-d's work, one of many and is not an antagnosit of G-d that Jesus needed to save the world from. 
These facts are shocking to many christians because most have never paused to actually compare Jewish teaching to what their church SAYS Jewish teaching is. Of course they do this on purpose to keep you ignorant and thus keep your money in their collection plate but that's for another time heh :p 

Ok, that's enough backstory, below is the post I copied from the other thread so I don't get accused of thread highjacking over there ;) 

David had said to me: 

>>If there was no Jewish concept of Origional sin then someone should have told John the Baptist and everyone, all Jewish, who went out to Repent!! and it probably would have been a good idea to inform the Temple Preisthood as well who were offering sacrifices for sin. 

and my reply follows (whew hope all that made sense) 
************ 
None of that involves "original sin" nor does sacrifice have anything to do with such a teaching. The Jews only taught sin to be disobeying God's law but there is no nor was there ever any magical sin that people are born with. That is what "original sin" is. It's a teaching from the first and second century gentiles, not Judaism which of course calls into question the entire validity and need for the Jesus story. 

You really need to educate yourself on Jewish theology for you can't possibly accept or expect anyone else to accept your "New Testament" theology if it doesn't agree with the so called "Old Testament" theology. 

If you'd like to learn more about the faith that Jesus supposedly came to complete then see: http://www.jewfaq.org/birth.htm#Birth to not do so is to remain comfortable and in ignorance like most of the church is worse yet you could be committing the sin of bearing false witness because you clearly don't understand Judaism. 

More specifically the Judaism 101 site says about Jesus and sin: 
------------- 
>>The Jews of Rome weren't looking for an incarnated god who would die and absolve them of their sins, because the idea of sin and its punishment aren't at the heart of Judaism, the way they are in Christianity. 
------------- 
Source: http://www.jewfaq.org/looking.htm 

Edit/Add: As for the John the Baptist point David made: if the event really happend its irrelvant because your Bible doesn't say anything about the baptism being to remove original sin (if that was all it took anyway there would be no need for Jesus now would there?) 

Rob 
ps I am not Jewish, merely pointing out some facts about Jewish faith. If you'd like to know about me and my stance see my web page which is in my delphiforums profile. 

Rob 



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Edited 3/28/2004 4:13 am ET by robocoastie 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Mar-28 8:45 am  
To:  robocoastie    (2 of 9)  
 
  846.2 in reply to 846.1  
 
Hi,

 

Thanks for starting a new topic with this post and not continuing it on the Symbolism in the Passion Movie topic.

 

My continual concern is that the Ministry of John the Baptist, a Jew to Jews, and a Levitical Priest himself, was Exactly to teach them to Repent in accordance with their own Hebrew Scriptures the Old Testament.

 

The Old Testament in every Sentence in every tone, aspect and syllable is about the Sin that has separated mankind from God.

 

The entire early Christian Church was Jewish meaning many Jews clearly understood and Accepted Jesus as the one sacrifice for the one Original sin of Mankind.

 

It does no good and makes no sense to follow the segment of Judaism that did not understand and missed the whole concept.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  robocoastie    Mar-28 10:58 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (3 of 9)  
 
  846.3 in reply to 846.2  
 
>>was Exactly to teach them to Repent in accordance with their own Hebrew Scriptures the Old Testament.

That's a christian teaching actually, the Jews had no such belief so once again John the B is merely another fictional figure for the christ story specifically in classical literature he is the herald, or the one who introduces the main character. Either way, it again had nothing to do with the teaching of "original sin" which the Jews had zero teaching of. See my link to the Judaism 101 site again its obvious that you havn't read what they have to say.

>>The Old Testament in every Sentence in every tone, aspect and syllable is about the Sin that has separated mankind from God.

That's again christian interpretation. Sin is not central in Jewish teaching so again its obvious that you still havn't read about the Jewish religeon but only what you've been told by the church what they believe. 

You're badly losing this argument David, I highly suggest you read the Judaism 101 site thoroughly and learn what Judaism actually teaches. I completely understand your headache about it though, its litterally a monkey wrench in the gears of your entire worldview because if there is no Original Sin then there is no seperation between G-d and man hence no need for the cross hence your religeon and worldview is a sham.  The consequences of such are enormous and so the ego will fight the facts tooth and nail, indeed it can even effect your lifestyle and income if you are a clergy member. So its only natural to refuse to accept it even when you see it in black and white as the Judaism 101 web site does for you.

>>The entire early Christian Church was Jewish meaning many Jews clearly understood and Accepted Jesus as the one sacrifice for the one Original sin of Mankind.

Actually that's debateable.  History tells us that the early church resembles nothing like the church does today, it was made up of several different christ cults most of which were gnostic and the teaching of sin much less OS had little to zero bearing on them. Instead their during the 30s and 40s of the first century was on the concept of a "Kingdom of God" seperate from the greco-Roman empire and the same teachings you find in Budhism and other religeons - the basics of which can be found in the so called Sermon on the Mount. The christian church didn't come up with the OS teachings until much later (the third century to be exact) and wasn't really hammered down until the Nicene Creed came about at which time the centrist christians set out to destroy the prevailing thoughts of the church which were gnostic. 

Again, I understand how difficult this is to accept because you've been taught exactly what the centrist christians wanted you to believe but a walk through your public libraries history section will tell you a completely different story and you'll see that you've been deceived and that the emporor has no clothes.

regards,

 

 

Rob
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Mar-28 4:11 pm  
To:  robocoastie    (4 of 9)  
 
  846.4 in reply to 846.3  
 
Hi,

 

I did go to your link and what I saw was mostly opinion and some vague history of traditions and customs. I didnt see any references to the Bible, the Jewish Old Testament, that discussed concepts only saying to circumcise a child but not pointing out that this is what brings a sinful child into a covenant relationship with the Holy God, so it was kind of pointless going to a Jewish site for History when you are attempting to have a Theological discussion..

 

John the Baptist, his ministry, is Prophesied by Isaiah the Prophet (Isaiah 40:3, Matthew 3:3). I dont know how you can say he is irrelevant or even that he didnt exist. Is that right? you are so certain to say that another human didnt even exist? That sounds very, very far fetched to me.

 

If there is no Jewish teaching or tradition of Sin Original Sin then what is with the Law of Moses and the Levitical Priesthood and what then is the meaning of the Jewish Temple Veil that separated sinful humans from the presence of the Holy God, the veil that was torn from top to bottom at the death of Jesus on the cross.

 

Im sorry to say it but your concept of everyone ancient and modern is wrong but you on the other hand know all things. It just seems even weird that you would insist so much about who lived who existed and who didnt and what was the meaning of their life. To say that it sounds just phony is to give it far too much credit because actually it sounds like a silly game of playing that everything that Christianity stands for you are simply going to deny.

 

After reading your posts in the end a person is left with the options of should I believe, God the Prophets the Bible the Apostles, Paul, the disciples, the Church Leaders, History, reality and everything else Christian or should I believe a few postings that deny far too much and really dont make sense.

 

For me the decision is obvious and I will continue to believe in Jesus and to have complete trust and faith in Him.


 

God Bless you,
David

 




David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  robocoastie    Mar-28 9:47 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (5 of 9)  
 
  846.5 in reply to 846.4  
 
End of discussion because you're exhibiting typical xian behavior (when backed against a wall you personally attack.)

The Judaism 101 web site is a very well known FAQ site for information on Jewish teachings like it or not it explains what Jews believe and it doesn't mesh with what christianity says they believe.

See what happens when your world view is challenged folks? The ego absolutely freaks out.

 

Rob
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Mar-28 10:22 pm  
To:  robocoastie   unread  (6 of 9)  
 
  846.6 in reply to 846.5  
 
Hi,

 

Thanks for revealing that your argument was totally groundless and baseless and was only an opinion and has nothing to do with fact, history or reality.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  8320john1   Mar-29 5:14 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (7 of 9)  
 
  846.7 in reply to 846.2  
 
This man is deceived, and that by RABBINICAL Judaism which is a perversion of True Judaism. 
True Judaism has very much to do with "original" sin and as you have noted, the Torah testifies to that fact. 

Most of these guys or girls, as the case may be, have been indoctrinated into Kabbalah or some Rabbinical Judaistic commentary, not the Scriptures themselves, in fact, MOST are greatly ignorant of what the Tenach teaches...like most Christians. 

In most cases, they are a waste of time, but I understand your attempt to help this beknighted soul.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Mar-29 7:15 am  
To:  8320john1   (8 of 9)  
 
  846.8 in reply to 846.7  
 
Hi John,

 

Thanks!!

 

I didnt know the other types of Judaism were so far apart from actual Judaism.

 

In his first post he pointed out that he is non-Jewish. It was surprising to me that he would post so emphatically for something that he does not bother to follow himself. Im not sure what his beliefs are, it is kind of like he is anything that is non-Christian and that really was his entire point.

 

God Bless you,
David

 



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    Mar-29 8:59 am  
To:  8320john1   (9 of 9)  
 
  846.9 in reply to 846.7  
 
Hi John,

 

The biggest point that can be made on this topic is that the Reality of the Matter is that Humans are separated from God and it is the sin that separates us.

 

We could each see God except for sin. God is Holy God and we are sinners therefore we are separated.

 

That is the point of the Bible that when God is reunited with Humans in Revelation it is After the Cross of Jesus, where sin died, and therefore humans will be once again in the perceivable presence of God just like Adam and Eve used to be in the beginning.

 

If anyone doubts that there is sin then they should be able to explain why we cannot visibly see God and True we can see the effects of God in Love, kindness, mercy, life, creation, etc.

 

God Bless you,
David

 



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
 
